LOL a post dedicated to Sam and me, I feel so ~honoured.

Oh man, first off, that fic is just so, so gorgeous and wonderful. ♥ ;_________________;

Secondly, HAHA MR T.



...okay, I'm going to type an actual response now. One moment. Please hold. *elevator music*

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You win a thousand internets.

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it would make me extremely happy, much like an ending, if you posted the twilight pdfs. :)

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I was going to write a comment just saying "LOL IT'S JUST 'CAUSE IDK HOW THE HELL TO WRITE FLUFF" (which is true, but that's besides the point) haha, but I shall attempt to ~delve deeper~. I'm absolutely awful at putting my thoughts into coherent phrases though, so do bear with me. >______>

Writing in general is an outlet for a lot of people, I guess? Of course I'm not saying that if an author writes a sad, angsty story they're depressed or if they write a fluffy, happy story they're over-the-moon, I guess I'm just saying that writing fiction can an outlet in terms of expressing opinions and/or perspectives that the author may not get to express otherwise.

Then again, I don't mean that fiction is necessarily a representation of the author, so I'm kind of talking myself into circles here, I apologize. /o\ IDEK WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT ANYMORE. HALP.

Oh, one more thing, only because I'm curious-- what do you consider a happy ending, though? A story where the protagonist ends up/stays together with the person he/she loves, a story in which the protagonist is satisfied with her or himself, etc.

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A story where the protagonist is satisfied with his or her life, preferably without hurting people who don't deserve to be hurt. That's about it.

I do think it's an outlet for the author, which brings me back to my previous analysis: '...the author 1) would rather watch other suffer to make themselves feel happier, 2) is miserable themselves and would rather bring others down to their level, in text if not in life or 3) doesn't understand that there is joy in life, and that happy endings are possible. And in that final case, the author should seek help, if they are not already receiving it."'

It doesn't mean that they're depressed (except in the final case), but it doesn mean that they're pretty unsatisfied. And pessimistic. AND I DON'T LIKE PESSIMISM. I like cynical realism, but those are not the same thing at all.

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I know we talked on AIM, but I rather like discussions so I hope it's alright if I respond to this anyway. \o/

Based on the last part of your comment, are you stating that by writing unhappy endings routinely, the author must be pretty unsatisfied/pessimistic? If so, I don't think that's a very fair assumption. Like what I said in a previous comment, while writing may be an outlet for the author, I don't think it is necessarily a representation of the author-- like, if someone were to write a dozen happy endings and then a dozen unhappy endings, what would you think of that, then? (Oh, and I don't mean to ask this in a rude way; I'm just curious!)

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When I write fic, I tend to be the kind of person who doesn't have a clear ending in mind when I begin something, so most of the time I finish a fic and sit back a little bit surprised at how everything turned out. I've had endings that have been happy and endings that have been sad and a lot of endings that have fallen somewhere in the middle of that continuum. It's a little bit corny, but my goal is to let stories grow naturally and become whatever they are meant to be.

That being said, I think the three reasons you list for having unhappy endings are a little unfair. I think saying that the only reason for unhappy endings are either the author being petty, the author being miserable, or the author not being able to see that there is happiness in life is very constricting and really, really unfair to the people who do write unhappy endings.

You say that life can have a happy ending and that's very true, but on the flipside, life can also have a tragic ending. I don't think an author either wanting to explore that or feeling that's the natural end to a story means they're just not capable of seeing the happy ending. I personally would rather see a well written sad/tragic/bittersweet ending than see a fic that's wonderful all the way through but has a happy ending tacked on that just doesn't feel natural.

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All of what you say is true, but I'm not talking about stories in general (I guess I didn't make that clear enough in my post). I'm talking about fanfiction specifically. Most people, including fic writers, agree that fic is either just frivolous fun, or else an outlet for the author preferences and emotions; I don't think I've met anyone that would claim they write fanfiction to reveal truths about life to the masses. It's not purely art, although often it contains artistic elements. I mean, I'm sure there are authors that would argue the opposite, and I'm in no position to tell them that they're wrong, but it seems that they are in the minority, and also that most people who routinely write unhappy endings don't see it as art. They see it as fun. And... I don't get it.

I don't have an ending in mind when I write, either, btw. I love when characters surprise me. But I have a tendency to keep writing when things get bad for them; I don't make that the ending, I make that the obstacle they have to overcome, and I keep going until there's a natural happy ending.

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Oh man, that kind of makes me want to go off on a whole different tangent about the whole, 'It's just fanfiction' thing that drives me crazy, but that's a different rant for a different day.

I tend to not really delineate between fanfiction and original fiction in the way that I treat the stories because, to me, in the end writing is writing and both are ways for me to create something and put it out there with the intention of other people reading it. That's why I don't try and make endings necessarily happy or light when I'm writing fic as opposed to original stuff. I don't ever want to put anything out there that I'm not proud of and that I don't think I tried my best on to make it good.

Of course I do know that I'm not ever going to make a living writing fic and that fic doesn't have the same form of accepted legitimacy in the wider world and probably never will, but I still try to give the same amount of care and considering to everything that I write. So, I think for me, changing a story about Brendon and Spencer to make the ending happy because it's about Brendon and Spencer and not two original characters feels like a little bit of disservice to the story II'm attempting to tell.

That being said, I think you do have a point about some people writing unhappy endings simply because they like them and I think you sort of sum it up right there. I mean, just because you don't get it or I don't get it doesn't mean that it's not an acceptable form of writing, which is sort of the way I read this post, though I could be reading it wrong.

This is a bit of cliche again, but I try and end stories where it feels like they should end, which isn't necessarily always the most cut and dry, clear, all questions answered ending. For me, I think there can be a tendency when people try and keep going and going until happiness is attained for those endings to feel dragging and forced. Of course, they do work sometimes, but I've noticed that a lot of the time you can tell the author was just pushing through so they didn't have to end it on a less than happy note.

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I don't think saying that "it's just fanfiction" means that it's okay to write bad things- I just think that in most cases, that aim is different. When people sit down and write because they want to prove something, discuss a point, display an opinion, I think that's art. But often in fic, people are just writing because they want to see the characters do something that they didn't do in the canon. That's pretty much my distinction. It's all writing, and they're all stories, and (if they're good) they're all worthwhile, but I don't think they're all art. Some fic is, but most isn't. You seem to be a person that looks at fic like art, which is why you get so irate when people dismiss it as trivial... but you also seem to be vastly in the minority. I don't disagree with you, I just think that you seem to be on of the exceptions that proves the rule.

I don't think it's not an acceptable form of writing... I mean, if I can be blunt, my point would be what you said: "I think saying that the only reason for unhappy endings are either the author being petty, the author being miserable, or the author not being able to see that there is happiness in life", only it applies only to people who routinely write unhappy endings. I mean, I was talking to conquer_minds about it on AIM and eventually she went, and I quote, "I feel like such a lame emo kid saying this, but whenever I even attempt to write a happy ending, I feel like I'm forcing it. ;__________; EMILY YOU SHOULD BE A BANDOM-ANALYZER. YOU MADE ME LEARN OF MY SEEKRIT!PESSIMIST!SELF" and as soon as she said that, I was kinda like, yeah. Yeah. Maybe that was my point. And maybe I'm just being nasty, but I kinda wanted to people to realize that writing miserable characters over and over again isn't realistic, and if it is, then yeah, that really does say something about you as a person. If you're writing stories where nothing bad ever happens ever, that says something too, and is equally annoying to me.

I'm not criticizing, because some people are like that, but I just kinda wanted to be like "DO YOU EVEN REALIZE WHAT YOU'RE DOING!?"

Re: the last bit. Actually, I don't think I've ever read a story where I felt that the author was dragging it out to find a happy ending. I guess it's a perception thing, or else I don't read the same stuff you do. I haven't actually noticed that.

Edited at 2009-01-02 03:07 am (UTC)

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That makes total sense.

I think my sort of problem with the way you word it is that it makes the writing of all sad endings or all happy endings come off as a bad thing or as a fault of the author and I don't think that's fair.

I think of lot of this really does come down to person preference. And the great thing about fandom is that just about anyone can find something to suit them exactly. I personally will tend to gravitate more toward bittersweet and somewhat more emotionally painful stories because those are the ones that leave me usually feeling more fulfilled when I'm done reading. But! I think if people want to read exclusively fluff and happy stuff, that's just as okay. Read what makes you warm and contented and purr like a cat inside.

Re: It's probably just reading different fic. I haven't been reading all that much lately, but it's something that happened in an oddly high proportion of the ones I did read. :)

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When people sit down and write because they want to prove something, discuss a point, display an opinion

Oh. I've seen this a lot in the fic I read. Especially MCR fandom. Although the issue of "in character/OOC" comes into play.

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lol I am going to carry the conversation over here since it's a) unlocked, b) on topic, and c) when there is a chain of comments in my journal, the layout I have right now makes it really hard to read =/

So. Okay. This is technically a reply to your last comment.

I suppose, even though I said that I didn't, I do consider fic to be art. But only in the sense that I consider all writing to be art, and any form of words, no matter the quality, is writing. But I guess what I meant to say was that I don't look at it as a serious art. I am not going to make a living off of writing fanfiction obviously, or even off of writing in general. And I definitely am not calling it art to rationalize and defend my pessimism. Mostly because I do not consider myself to be a pessimist. I deal with a ton of shit, I have problems, times can sucks, blahblahblah. Everyone has shit and problems. I try to make the best of it, and even if I can get down sometimes, I can look at all the clouds and know there is a sun behind them.

And after reading these comments, I will say Ess's icon will forever continue to scare the shit out of me, and that I agree with sinuous_curve on many regards, but mostly the bit about wanting to see an unhappy ending rather than a happy one that feels more forced than natural. In the case of the particular fic we're talking about, well, I didn't think a happy ending felt right. For one, the song that inspired it makes me sad =[ And for another, the situation in general felt very tragic to me. Gabe was gay, and from age 19 he knew he would have to spend the rest of his life with a girl. True, he loves her, she's his best friend. But there's something incredibly sad, I think, about knowing that you will never have a relationship for the rest of your life.

Again, I don't know where I'm going with this. I never remember my points when I'm done typing something, which sucks, because I can never draw conclusions =/

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Okay, I'll use your fic as an example. I really hope you don't get offended, because I did love it, but I'll use it because it's a text we're both familiar with. Specifically, if that song made you sad, why did you feel compelled to expand on that theme? Why did you want to write a sad story, instead of writing a story about a song that made you happy? Your fic wasn't all that miserable, in the end; it was less tragic and more bittersweet. Gabe never lost hope for his daughter, and he still dwelled on the memories of good times, so all in all, it's not like you ended it with him killing himself rather than not being able to be with Travis or something ridiculous like that.

"I consider all writing to be art." I guess this is where we differ, because I disagree. Strongly. Very strongly. I consider all words to be writing, but not all writing to be art.

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Oh, don't worry. I'm not offended at all. And thank you =]

Like I said before, when I feel something, there really is no other way for me to get it out. And it's one thing for me to hand a CD to someone and say, "Listen to this song. It's sad." I'm not great with words, I stutter and trip, it's hard for me to get things across while I'm talking. But I can get things across when I have the time to type them out. And while the meaning of this fic isn't to show people that The River is a sad song, what I'm saying is that when I'm feeling sad, I'll write sad.

I guess we do differ there. I think anything you do passionately can be considered art, by the loose, not completely solid terms in which I actually define art. But I'm glad we can disagree, because most of the time when I differ with someone on a subject, they just change their mind and agree with me. Either because a) they can't form their own opinions, b) they want to pretend we have that something in common, or c) they just don't want to get into it. Either way, it annoys me, and I'm glad to see you standing by what you're saying. It's refreshing.

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Perhaps it's just an exploration of all types of endings? I hate sad endings. So much. I'm the kid who wants to see the protagonist go off happily into the sunset forever and ever. However, as an author, I feel like it's good to challenge myself and have a story turn out in a different type of way. I don't think it necessarily means an author is pessimistic or needs to seek help (though in some cases that's definitely true; do you remember that whole phase in the entirety of my chem fandom of suicide and death fics? that sucked). I know it's fanfiction and not srs bzns but why not try something other than happy endings? A lot of people write fanfiction because it's a stepping stone to writing original stuff. Why not explore the conventions of "actual fiction" within this fandom to prepare for writing original stories with these same aspects? For example, Jaida Jones (who co-wrote Shoebox Project) went on to write a novel. Starting with pre-existing characters might have helped her develop as a writer, because she could have placed these characters in these unhappy situations to see what she could make of that type of situation.

I'm kind of tired from New Year's so this is getting long-winded, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say and that I'm not coming across as mean or condescending. I find what you say to be compelling and overall awesome.

And I actually kind of like the ending as it is. Hmmm.

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From a reader's perspective, my fic preferences skew toward happy, but overall run the gamut from happy to sad to bittersweet to complete lack of closure. Just... everyone experiences things differently, you know? And that's really all it comes down to. You like stories that leave you happy and gleeful and seal-clapping with joy. So do I. But I also like stories that hit me in the gut (without making me feel manipulated) and leave me misty-eyed or even weepy. I like stories that make an impact on me, one way or another. It's not so much finding happiness in misery as it is finding happiness in being moved.

From a writer's perspective (and the writer's/reader's perspectives can blur), I go with whatever ending feels most appropriate to the characters and the situation they're in and the themes that have found their way into the story. If I'm feeling more self-indulgent, I will write a fic with a specific purpose in mind (e.g. getting off, cheering myself up, whatever), but I tend to write more because I've been inspired to tell a story than anything else. I don't differentiate too much between fanfiction and original fiction in that regard. If I come across some bit of information that I could spin into a good tale, whether that tale is happy or sad, I will want to tell it. I will want to get deep into the heads of my characters and the world that the story is told in, and explore them, no matter how fucked up or depressing they may be. It can be cathartic, or it can be draining, but it's always a learning experience.

And that's my two cents.

Also I has HTML fail.

Edited at 2009-01-02 12:53 pm (UTC)

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