i think a people who are being systematically oppressed, driven out of their homes, and kept in poverty by the people in power have the right to fight back. that doesn't mean i agree with everything every palestinian has ever done in the name of defending his or her right to be alive and to live in his or her home and country. but i do have a lot more sympathy and understanding for the group who are being oppressed in any given situation than i do for their oppressors. palestinians have little to no power over the situation in their homeland. israel is backed by the US.

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OT but is that a Nicky Wire icon I see?

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'tis indeed! the manics are my favourites.

&jaaaaaaaames;
i saw him do a solo show at the newbridge memo once, where he used to work. it was pretty special.

Edited at 2008-10-26 04:07 am (UTC)

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^__^!!!

The Manics are awesome. I've never seen any of them before, in concert or otherwise. This makes me sad :(

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iawtc, all of it.

also, nitpick - I think it would have been more accurate(/politically correct, but accurate nonetheless) to frame it as siding with Israel vs. Palestine, not Israelis vs. Palestinians. Because as we all well know, citizens != government.

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My real question, to be honest, is Israel vs. Hamas. I thhink everyone has sympathy with the Palestinian civilians on at least some level, of course, but I want to know how many people think that Hamas' actions are justified based on Israel's behavior and actions.

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HAH. I will never forget the fight I once had with your dad over Hamas. Good times.

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that is not what you asked. that is not what we discussed. and indeed, that is not what this poll asks.

just for the record, like. but hey, if you want to believe that everyone who considers the actions of the israeli government completely reprehensible automatically supports hamas, then knock yourself out.

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I know it's not what I asked. That's why I brought it up here, and that's why I clarified. I don't even expect all of my flist to know what Hamas is, because not everyone's as informed as I am, thank you, which is why I didn't put them in the poll.

I brought Hamas up half a dozen times in my discussion with you, and not once did you tell me you didn't support them, even when I directly asked you.

Edited at 2008-10-27 01:17 pm (UTC)

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i'm pretty sure most people who know about the conflict at all know what hamas is. most are also aware that israel knowingly murder civilians.

i didn't tell you i support hamas, either. i was busy explaining my stance on israel, if i recall correctly. you just decided to assume that i do, presumably because you'd prefer to believe that anyone who doesn't support the continued oppression of a people must automatically side with the most extreme of their defenders. this is not exactly how the world works. for the record, i don't support the destruction of israel or its people. but i don't support the destruction of palestine or its people either, which would be why i don't support israel.

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I don't like this argument and I don't like your name-calling, and I've tried very hard to be polite about all this. I did not ever say you supported Hamas, and I'd like to say that disagreeing with you does not make me uneducated. Refusing to display evidence when requested because "you don't feel like it" and criticizing my knowledge on the subject does, however, make you a bad debater, which is another reason why I'd prefer that this discussion ends here.

I would appreciate if you would leave me alone in the future.

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i haven't called you a single name. and you went pretty far in insinuating that i do support hamas, and you know it.

and no, disagreeing with me does not make you uneducated. being uneducated about an issue you are debating makes you uneducated about the issue you are debating.

a debate is not about educating your opponent about the most basic things regarding the conflict at hand. or anything at all regarding the conflict, for that matter.

and hey, i've cut you a lot of slack because of your age. but i am of the belief that if you're old enough to debate a political issue, you're old enough to educate yourself on it. it's not my job to do so. and i will critizise the knowledge of anyone who flat-out admits to having no knowledge of a very central part of the issue at hand. i'm not the bad debater here. you are.

i will "leave you alone" in future. i only commented in the first place because i was being accused, indirectly or directly, of things i had never said or done.

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this is always a hard question for me. i can't answer because none of your choices really apply to my thoughts on the situation.

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I wish I could have voted the last option, but to be honest, that one sounds to me like I'm not familiar with it AT ALL or just don't care. Sadly, it is not possible to be in Balkans and not follow the politics, that's everyone's favorite sport around here. And even if I could say that I do not give a fuck about it as other people do here, it is impossible for me to not know a thing about world's politics and have my opinion about it, because I'm surrounded by it and people talking about it on a daily basis.

Being from the country where there have been a civil war recently, and also being one of the rare people here that look at the situation without biased eye and being on the side of MY ethnicity just because it's MINE, I'm of the opinion that every conflict has two sides involved, and while they both have reasons to fight another, obviously, both also are responsible for continuing the conflict, and hurting the other side as much as the other side is hurting them. Like, people here have the ongoing fight about who started first. Was it Serbs or Muslims. Who the fuck cares? The other side certainly didn't sit back in peace. They were both killing innocent people.
Now, when it comes to what do I think politically about the Middle East situation... I am slightly in favor of Israel. But I'm not denying they did bad things too for THEIR cause. Therefore my answer being the 2nd option.

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Israel, because of the Jew-thing, but the Palestinians have been fucked over. I think we need two states, honestly. And I think a lot of people (namely pretentious liberals) should stop sticking their noses in Israel's business (ditto for pretentious conservatives sticking their noses in the Palestinians' business). They never know what they're talking about, and it ALWAYS irritates me. My friends are always spouting a mountain 'o crap about one or the other, and I'm all "....seriously?"

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